Lol, I recently took one of those "how big of a bible geek are you" quizzes and realized I'm getting rusty.Originally Posted by Tempest
Having said that, I would like to comment on "forgiveness". I know it's a new catchphrase that has been popularized in New Age literature, although it's origin is Biblical/New Testament. Being the expert you are, maybe you know of some further back origin.Being an ex Bible thumper these days, the word rather gives me the willies. Brings on too many visions of a loving/vengeful/multiple personality god. I prefer the word "acceptance", and I'll tell you why. I'm sure you knew I would.
Apparently forgiveness is a big deal in Hinduism, which predates the Abrahamic religions, so it couldn't have originated with them. *trivia* I would think the basic concept goes beyond religion though; it wouldn't surprise me to find that early humans had some sort of concept of "making things right." *shrug*
Anyway...
I have a harder time with the idea of "acceptance," interestingly... but as Gehenna said, it may just be semantics. I can accept people as they are (and set up or bring down the appropriate boundaries) because people will be people and there's really nothing I can do about that. I can also accept any "God-spark" that might exist in anybody, though I think it's very possible for that to be squished down so far by one's choices that it may as well not be there. But when it comes to the actions of people, my subconscious seems to hear "acceptance" and not only feel like I'm marginalizing myself, but saying "he's accepting things that cause suffering... bring on more suffering!"
I understand and agree that "feeling wronged" is a matter of perception. But that perception is one that seems to stick, in such a way that continues to sit around in the subconscious, attracting other crap to itself, until something is done with it. If someone kicked down your proverbial sand-castle when you were five, you might not care now, but back then it was a huge issue... and for some part of you, if the issue hasn't been deliberately released, it may still be. Or, this is the way it's seemed to work with me anyway. Hopefully my "burning down the archive" exercise will have changed that.
When I say that I "forgive" someone or something, I'm simply taking whatever debris I still carry from the original event, recognizing and releasing it. There may be no universal "right or wrong," but I've found that if I validate the aspect of myself, "I understand that you feel wronged, and why, but now we need to release this so it won't continue to affect the rest of my experience"... it's much more effective than telling the aspect "you're wrong to feel wronged because there is no right or wrong, so just accept it." From what I can tell, the effect of any event is about 10% from the event itself, and 90% from the "stuff" that we continue to hang on to afterward. The 10% stays in the past, but the 90% continues to affect the present until purged. I also have some evidence from the theory that hanging onto the 90% can also keep a relationship within the framework of the event -- i.e. you've got this blob of crap in you that says this person is "bad" and so they respond to that, and continue to be "that person."
So, the process I call "forgiveness" actually doesn't really have anything to do with the other person per se. Since we're all interconnected, it wouldn't surprise me if any other involved parties got some sort of positive release from it, but for me it's more a matter of cleaning out my own attic. Reconciliation is another separate concept, and not always appropriate to accompany forgiveness IMO. There are people I've forgiven, i.e. released from my system, that I still recognize it would not be healthy to have in my life in any capacity.
Heh... you won't get any karma-shpiel from me; I'm not a fan of the concept either. To me it's just another inherently unverifiable reward / punishment scheme cooked up to enforce a given moral framework for which there is no basis in reality.No, don't talk to me about karma. (You were going to, weren't you?) I think karma has a limited existence, and may only exist for humans who actually believe in it. Don't get me started on that topic...
Timo said:TTP said, "That doesn't mean that I hang out with the local serial killer, I'm not stupid."
Timo, would you please just get over it and stop making snide comments about what I say? This is how I talk, and I'm not breaking any rules. If you don't like what I have to say, don't read it, but stop harassing me. Do you actually even have a sense of humor?again, the most profane off topic comparison.Well, I do, and it's slightly twisted. Deal with it, or read elsewhere. I'm starting to feel like you are stalking me. I would bet money that you have done a search on me to read my posts so you can stand in judgement.
So, let's see, you've accused me of "tromping all over the boundarys of others", you keep bringing up the topic I mentioned ONCE about pedophiles, bringing it into other threads, COMPLETELY misunderstanding my intention,: here you've decided to become my teacheri merely interpret the 'between the lines' scenery, with no disrespect, to point to the obvious for learning's sake.and here,
you've called me shallow and stupid.the shallowest of folk are never the same one day to next, for at the nap of their skin they are flaked off and destined to tred in the dandor of their own stupor. Forest Gumpism - "stupid is as stupid does"
You don't know me, have no idea what my motives are, what my personality is like, or what I have done in my life, and yet, you've chosen to become my personal judge and jury. I know you've been talked to by CFT about this, and I told her not to worry about it. Now, I'm just plain tired of it, and would ask that you keep your personal comments about me inside your own head. Feel free to comment with an opposing viewpoint, but leave the personal attacks locked away in that judgemental head of yours.
After talking to PH, and realising we are on the same page and it is mostly semanticsm Id say forgiveness/acceptance, to ME, is the refusal to stop paying an emotional price for someone else's past actions and to take the appropriate action which is best for yourself; for example to continue the relationship with a clean slate, no snide remarks etc, or to cut ties or whatever else.
Most of the time, what we silently rage about is forgotten by the other party, or else they don't understand the problem, or plain just don't care.. so why torture yourself. Forgiveness/acceptance doesn't mean forgetting, and can be positive; a long wed-couple who joke about infidelity when they were younger is a great example.
Palearse said:This is partially what I mean by "acceptance". In hypnotherapy, we often use a technique of releasement. Sometimes it's an "entitiy" (when using spiritual hypnotherapy), sometimes it's an issue someone is hanging on to that needs releasement. The technique is similar to what I assume Gehenna uses, although I usually can't metaphysically "see" the entity or problem. During hypnosis and with guidance, many clients have been able to visualize their problem and remove it, much like Robert teaches astral hands. Healing very often occurs at this point. Actual forgiveness is not involved in the process, it's a matter of detection, releasement, and acceptance.if the issue hasn't been deliberately released, it may still be.
So, yes, the difference between forgiveness and acceptance may just be semantics, with my personal bias coming into play here. Although, I do strongly think that accepting the notion that there is no ultimate right or wrong in the universe can go a long way towards personal healing. I've seen it in my life, and I've seen it in others. My son carried around huge amounts of anger towards his dad who abandoned him as a young child. As an adult, he would not return his dad's calls, and expressed a bitterness that tore at my heart. There was no good reason for the abandonment, and, yet, I can't really fault him for it. People need to live their lives as they see fit, as they are on their own personal journey, and we can't know what that journey and it's purpose is ultimately about. After my son had a spiritual upheaval in his life, he came to the understanding that there is no ultimate right or wrong, and was able to accept his dad back into his life. The bitterness instantly left. It was kind of amazing to see.
In the same vein, those we choose as companions along our journey are usually there for a purpose. And, I mean the supposed "good" and "bad" companions. If you accept the idea of past lives, in doing past life regression hypnotherapy, I've learned that we often come back as antagonists to the protagonists in our life story. We actually choose people/souls and make agreements with them to create disharmony and pain in our lives for purposes of learning and experiencing. After death, everyone usually becomes "friends" once again, even though they may have made our life a living hell. While not having omniscience, souls usually are made aware of the reasons for the supposed good and bad occurances in their lives. Time and again, I've seen clients who were taken to the time between lives come to the understanding of why they chose certain people to create havoc in their lives, creating a healing and an acceptance of the roles we all play in each other's lives. This personal acceptance and healing has allowed them to move past the idea of right and wrong, and see, for the first time, how we work together to create experiences of all kinds...not just "good" ones.
I'm not discounting that this probably is sometimes the case, though based on my experience, in life as well as getting feedback on various situations from my HS, I would have to say "sometimes but not always."
On one hand, I could present the example of my family. We've all been an asset to each other in some ways I think, and in others we've caused a lot of suffering for each other. This is probably the case in most families to varying degrees, but I could see where there were agreements involved here, partly because I've had an experience that seems to support the idea that I picked my parents. Although, I know others who would dispute that they picked theirs -- I've seen cases where evidence seem to indicate that the families they ended up with was more of a case of derailing on the way in, than a mutual agreement.
Likewise, there are situations in my life that my HS has indicated were an attempted derailing, rather than anything I consented to, whether at his level, mine or anywhere in between. At that point it seems that the HS has the choice of whether to accept the attempted derailing as part of the incarnation's experience because he (gender pronoun used for convenience, although mine seems to manifest more as a "he") thinks there's a high enough probability of something he hopes to gain from it, or he can intervene directly. I've seen examples of both in my own life. There are times when I personally got things back on track and learned something in the process; there were other times when I got direct intervention unasked, and there were still other times when I asked for intervention, and got it, because it was mutually agreed that the antagonist wasn't going to stop on their own, neither I nor my HS wanted to continue in the direction the antagonist had in mind, and I didn't yet have the resources "on the ground" to put a stop to it on my own.
Conversely, I've gotten indication that the HS of some people playing the antagonist role do not approve or consent to what they're doing, and in some of those cases it's whatever they're possessed by, not the HS or any sort of agreement, that is the driving force behind the course of events. In extreme cases it may be that whatever remained of the HS's influence and its connection has been squelched out, there's literally nothing left of the original person, and the identity is that of the possessing entity. In one such case in my own life, according to my HS, he has no prior or current association with the HS of the person who was playing that role in my life, but then, that person doesn't have much of a remaining association with the former HS either.
Not a fun subject necessarily, but just another alternate view to consider.
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