Are Vegetarians...NonViolent?

[lightningbug]

All around me there are many spiritual people telling me the world is going to become vegetarian for one reason or another. Maybe all the animals in the farms will become diseased, so we'll stop eating them. Maybe all the fish in the sea will die, so we'll stop eating them.

Either way, it seems only a matter of time before the world becomes vegetarian. Great news for vegetarians. Bad news for me, since I don't understand the very basic vegetarian belief. That it is a non-violent diet.

When I was six or seven, my dad took me to the forest and we picked some wild flowers. We brought the flowers home, and put them in a vase. What happened next forever changed my perspective of the plant world and our relationship with them. The flowers died. They died slowly within days while the rest of the wild flowers outside thrived. And I didn't understand why the flowers died since we had put them a big vase of water, and plenty of sunshine.

Well around the same time at school we were learning a bit about the natural world, the life cycle of butterflies. And even the life cycle of plants. And this was when I learned that the basic plant needs roots. No roots. Plants can't drink water and die.

Then a revelation hit me. All adults must know this. And they don't care. Adults know they are condemning flowers to death when they pick them. And they don't care.

I realized there's no point in making an argument. People don't care if they kill flowers. But at the age of seven I made a personal vow, which I have kept. I will never pick flowers.

Then comes christmas time! Who doesn't love the fresh scent of a christmas tree? I loved the christmas tree so much, I even wrote little story about it. I was drawing the tree in the pot, when another realization hit my childish brain. This pot is far too small for tree roots! This tree is just another giant picked flower and without roots its going to die!

And this hurt me more than mere flowers, because of all the plant life - the tree is just wow. I've always felt they had souls. And were killing them for a holiday decoration!

Now, I know that trees are being killed for lots of other extensionally meaningless things, like toothpicks. But its way too complicated for me to begin to say when it is okay to kill a tree, and when it isn't okay to kill a tree. The only thing that made sense to me, as it made sense to me at the age of seven..............was how tragic it was to rip a tree from its roots. And make a mockery of it as it struggles to drink water.

Then comes middle school, when I first really encounter vegetarians. And our first meeting was not a happy one. I ask the vegetarians, why they do not eat meat? They're answer was simple - because animals are living things. So I ask them, but aren't plants living things? And the usual response was. "Yeah but..they're not really living" "They're not conscious" or "They don't feel pain"

All three of these answers stroke a bone so deep with me, so much to the point, I never wanted to be associated with vegetarians. Vegetarians are the reason why I dislike vegetarianism.

The argument that plants were not conscious was something I couldn't grasp my mind around. How can anything be living, without awareness? It seemed evident to me as early as middle school that what separates life from non-life, is self awareness. It would make no sense why a plant would bother to breathe, if they didn't care to be alive. The idea that life just lives because its programmed to live, seemed illogical to me.

My teachers argued against me. Explaining that something needs a nervous system to be conscious. So then I asked myself, a catholic at the time........Does the soul need a nervous system to be conscious?

Do aliens need nervous system to be conscious? Couldn't there be other systems of consciousness, besides a nervous system, which is very specific to the animal kingdom on earth?

How can plants even interact with their environment in the way that they do, without some sort of system?

Well, I'm happy I kept to my hunches. As it turns out, we know now that the most basic life forms, single-celled life forms - are self aware. That by communicating with each other, the most basic life forms distinguish self from non-self!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TVfmUfr8VPA

And if we realize that self-awareness is a basic function of basic life forms......why wouldn't self awareness be the norm for all life forms?

Now...there are very good and valid arguments against many farms and slaughter houses. But that's not where I want to bring this argument. I'm putting this here because there is another argument for vegetarianism. And there are two main spiritual arguments for vegetarianism, both I have 'beef' with.

One. God designed for us to eat vegetables. Not animals. And two. The nonviolent argument. Any consumption of an animal is violent, but consuming a salad is nonviolent.

So I've tried to dig deeper at the argument that God wants us to be vegetarian. Well the first thing I find is genesis. Where God commands us to eat the fruit of trees. Now fruit is very special, it is the ONLY living thing on this planet that WANTS to be eaten. The trees WANT you to eat their fruit. And certainly, the fruitarian argument, that is the diet of eden, the diet God intended for us....MAKES SENSE!!

It does make moral sense.

Why would God want you to eat the carrot, anymore than God wants you to eat a chicken? When the bible seems to make it clear, God loves all his creations. The fruit becomes the only thing you can consume...............without actually harming a living thingl!

The God-Vegetarian argument takes many twists and turns. Some saying, oh, its okay to eat plants because they have no soul. Oh its okay to eat plants because, their consciousness is sleeping, so they don't know you're eating them. Oh its okay to eat a plant, because the human soul can't reincarnate as a plant.

But none of these God arguments really get to the moral heart of the matter. Why God would want us to eat any living thing to begin with???

The nonviolence argument becomes just as puzzling for me. I was reading up on the nonviolence practice, and I found something very - strange. They refrained from harming plants.........in the invent it would harm bugs and microscopic life??????

So the microscopic organisms that could be harmed should we pull a plant from its roots, have more value, than the plant itself? Or am I misunderstanding some of these arguments?

Its just so frustrating that a vegetarian places more value on microscopic life, than a plant, thousands of years more advanced and complex than any micro organism. Is it because we can clearly see microscopic life moving around in a petri dish, to let you know its alive? Well then..just fast forward plants...They are always moving!

Do you understand my dilemma in a world saying vegetarian is the spiritual diet?

In my perspective, I can't fathom it being wrong to eat a living thing - because im no magical air breathing yogi. I can't get away from eating a living thing. And I don't want to be hypocritical and just pretend vegetables aren't living.

I can't sit here and pretend vegetarianism is a nonviolent diet, when biology shows us how plants employ various self-defense techniques. Why do they self defend themselves, if not for the fear of death?

I can't sit here and pretend that vegetarianism is a spiritual diet, when spiritually speaking, why does God want us to eat any living thing? In the garden of eden it was fruit....very different from a living vegetable.

And of course there are so many ills and wrongs happening in the food market today. But in my perspective, it's not that it is morally wrong to eat meat. So much as it is how we have gone about it, and the over consumption of meat. Likewise, it's not just our animal farms that are completely unnatural, but so are our monoculture plant farms. There is nothing in nature that resembles it!!

Really, if you demand that my diet is spiritually moral...I would have to live off fruit!! Or worse......air. Until then, I will just try to eat healthy. And healthy meat as it turns out, doesn't come from abused animals.

[CFTraveler]

Awesome post, lightning bug.
Allow me to comment on some things:

All around me there are many spiritual people telling me the world is going to become vegetarian for one reason or another. Maybe all the animals in the farms will become diseased, so we'll stop eating them. Maybe all the fish in the sea will die, so we'll stop eating them.

Here is a clue: Someone that calls themselves an '-an', or 'ist', or 'er' (etc.) has made more than just a choice of what to eat- they have joined a club, and this club makes them members. Being a member of something makes you part of something, or different. Some people want to be different. I know some vegetarians that believe they're superior to others because of that. Some want everyone to be the same as them. So they want to believe everyone should be like them. Like any movement, religious or political- ideology in action. If you search my old posts you will know what I think of ideology.

As to the thing about a vegetarian world (I don't see how it's feasible) if all the fish died, we'd die too- because everything is part of the ecosystem. If anything in the food chain (oh my heavens, did I say food chain? ) steps out, everything collapses. If there are no fish there are no plankton (at least no zooplankton) and chances are phytoplankton would be next. The seas would die, there would be no oxygen, etc. But anything that would kill animals so indiscriminately would have killed us before, probably. So I don't see that happening.
Now- here's the good news about eating vegetarian- less carbon footprint, etc. But of course that would mean we'd actually have to grow more food crops and less fuel crops, if we're going to eat the amount of protein we need to support the 'first world' populations (a terrible nomer, I know)- but you get the idea. And no, I don't think that's gonna happen either.
So to the last item in this 'prediction' and the most important one- we're not natural vegetarians, we're omnivores. We have the teeth and guts of some plant eaters, and the stomach of a carnivore. We're not carnivores- if we were we wouldn't need vitamin c and other ones found only in plants (true carnivores' livers make C for them) but we can't digest most fiber, like carnivores. True herbivores can digest fiber and get protein out of stuff like lettuce and grass. We can't- it goes through us. So we need the vites and antioxidants from plants, we need the protein (and iron, to some extent) from animal sources That means, no matter what the ideology is, that we crave animal protein because we need it. We like to eat meat, we choose to eat meat, and at least I'm not going to sit around and let someone else decide what I get to eat. It's that simple. And I am one of the most fluffy of the fluffy bunnies that you'll ever see. I personally won't eat cow because of the way they're treated, and don't eat pork because my trigs are too high. But the fact is, I get to make the choice, and I'll fight for the choice of every other omnivore to eat whatever they want. Within reason, I hope you understand.

All adults must know this. And they don't care. Adults know they are condemning flowers to death when they pick them. And they don't care.

Here's the other thing about human nature- if it doesn't have a face it's not like us. So we don't care. That is the truth about it.

People don't care if they kill flowers. But at the age of seven I made a personal vow, which I have kept. I will never pick flowers.

Good for you- but for another reason, and I'll get around to it.

Then comes middle school, when I first really encounter vegetarians. And our first meeting was not a happy one. I ask the vegetarians, why they do not eat meat? They're answer was simple - because animals are living things. So I ask them, but aren't plants living things? And the usual response was. "Yeah but..they're not really living" "They're not conscious" or "They don't feel pain"

Or, 'they don't look like us, so we don't care.

So I've tried to dig deeper at the argument that God wants us to be vegetarian. Well the first thing I find is genesis. Where God commands us to eat the fruit of trees. Now fruit is very special, it is the ONLY living thing on this planet that WANTS to be eaten. The trees WANT you to eat their fruit. And certainly, the fruitarian argument, that is the diet of eden, the diet God intended for us....MAKES SENSE!!

It does make moral sense.

Actually, there is a part in the OT (I think it's after the flood) that God tells them that now they can eat animals, except for the forbidden ones. But IMO this has to do with culture and not with morals.

Why would God want you to eat the carrot, anymore than God wants you to eat a chicken? When the bible seems to make it clear, God loves all his creations. The fruit becomes the only thing you can consume...............without actually harming a living thingl!

Fruits and seeds. It's actually ok to eat fruits & seeds because that is how many plants reproduce- the yummy smell of the fruit attracts the animal (including humans), they eat the yummy part, either spit the seeds out (saliva starts a process, or they eat the seeds and poop them out- sometimes that is the only way some seeds will germinate, so technically eating fruit is good for the plant- that's how it propagates.

The God-Vegetarian argument takes many twists and turns. Some saying, oh, its okay to eat plants because they have no soul. Oh its okay to eat plants because, their consciousness is sleeping, so they don't know you're eating them. Oh its okay to eat a plant, because the human soul can't reincarnate as a plant.

But none of these God arguments really get to the moral heart of the matter. Why God would want us to eat any living thing to begin with???

Humans have been using the 'God wants me to' argument to get away with doing what they deem is right, and this is no different.

Do you understand my dilemma in a world saying vegetarian is the spiritual diet?

Sure, it's the dilemma a lot of us have faced. But the thing is, if we weren't meant to eat anything living, we wouldn't even be here to begin with. Obviously the challenge is how to be here without breaking our own convictions. At least that's what I think.

I can't sit here and pretend vegetarianism is a nonviolent diet, when biology shows us how plants employ various self-defense techniques. Why do they self defend themselves, if not for the fear of death?

Not so much fear, but it's obvious that the drive is towards life, regardless of what we believe.

And of course there are so many ills and wrongs happening in the food market today. But in my perspective, it's not that it is morally wrong to eat meat. So much as it is how we have gone about it, and the over consumption of meat. Likewise, it's not just our animal farms that are completely unnatural, but so are our monoculture plant farms. There is nothing in nature that resembles it!!

I agree and that is the real problem, IMO.

Really, if you demand that my diet is spiritually moral...I would have to live off fruit!! Or worse......air. Until then, I will just try to eat healthy. And healthy meat as it turns out, doesn't come from abused animals.

I don't understand why anyone should have the power, moral or political, to judge anyone else on what they eat (with a few exceptions, obviously)- but I don't think you should give anyone your power by letting them think they have some sort of moral ground that's higher than yours.
In other words, why do you care what vegetarians (or any other king of ideology driven member) think?

[Palehorse Redivivus]

Cool thread indeed, LB.

CF has pretty much summed up my position on the whole thing as well. Regardless of personal morals or preferences -- it's a biological fact that our bodies are designed for an omnivorous diet.

Another thing I've pointed out before (or tried, before I was metaphorically pelted by a hail of veggies) is that, historically and even in the present, it has never been a feasible choice for the majority of the world's population. Sure, technically we can survive as vegetarians or vegans, it's possible... but if you look at what it takes to sustain a healthy and balanced veg diet, you're looking at a lot of rather exotic, imported foods, and probably supplements as well. This has only been possible for about a century or two at best, with the advances of mass transit, refrigeration, etc., and who knows for how much longer this will be the case? Even today, how much of the world's population can afford and has ready access to all that it would take to be a healthy vegetarian or vegan? Probably not much. Most places historically have made use of what's immediately available in a given location, plant and animal alike, until nations and empires started getting rich and spread out enough to establish long distance trade. Even then, livestock, seafood and/or game animals are almost invariably found as staples, depending on the terrain.

Personal tastes and morals aside, I've tried different things and paid a lot of attention to how it makes me feel, nutritionally speaking -- my body really takes well to fish. As far as I know this has a lot to do with omega-3 fatty acids, i.e. fish oil, for which not a whole lot of other sources exist. It's apparently found in the algae the fish eat... you find me somewhere I can buy massive amounts of algae, and find a way to make it appetizing, and I'll eat the algae AND my hat. (I don't have a hat. But still.) Should I feel guilty about this? Well, I don't deal in "shoulds" much, but either way I'm not gonna.

I should say that not all vegetarians are militant or trying to force their diet choices on anybody. My favorite veggie, who I'm in a relationship with, is so more out of personal preference than any moral concern -- her body doesn't take well to meat, and she doesn't like the taste of it and never has. That's all well and good, and she's still willing to make me steak (and does a damn fine job of it, too ). Interestingly, speaking of my favorite veggie, who's also a sensitive empath -- one day we passed a tree that had a tight cord around it, i.e. a gardening technique basically to strangle it to death. She got a strong impression of suffering, and felt she had to remove it, so she did so. I haven't actually tried to vibe-sense a tree myself, though I've been meaning to give it a shot to see what I get, but something about that incident doesn't surprise me. Hell, if you're a fan of the Seth books, even the mineral kingdom may possess its own sort of consciousness.

On planet earth the reality is that all life consumes other life to survive, except the plants (and maybe even them if everything has a sort of consciousness to it). My position is, whatever you choose to eat, be thankful for it, and the life force passing from it to you, but don't feel guilty about it, don't let anyone make you feel guilty about it, and help preserve the right of every individual to make their own choices.

On that note, someone recently submitted an article to be linked on my own blog exploring this issue, which I liked a lot... 'tis worth the read.

Am I a Bad Yogi Because I Want to Eat Steak?

See..what really worries me about extreme diets, such as raw foodism or fruitarians... its that well, you'd spend half your life on the toilet. *injects humor*

[Tom]

The problem isn't the diet - it is the smug factor.

[Palehorse Redivivus]

The problem isn't the diet - it is the smug factor.

Alright Tom gets the award for "condensing the entire thread down to ten words." Well done!

After posting I remembered something I wanted to add, re: "everything being conscious."

A friend of mine used to work in a metaphysical store. One day she was feeling really rough; the kind of mood where you're full of anger and irritability, and have spikey energy shooting off in all directions. At one point she went over to one of the display bowls of stones, grabbed a handful of rose quartz and stuck it on her crown chakra in an attempt to feel better. At that point she got a strong impression from the stones themselves: "you're hurting us." She quickly apologized and put them back in the bowl, lol.

I'm just telling the story for the sake of interest; I haven't had an opportunity to verify any sort of awareness in stones or trees myself. But I have experienced the influence that the energy of various stones has on my energy -- whose to say our energy couldn't affect them as well in a way that is, in some sense, perceived?

[ButterflyWoman]

Just a thought about cutting flowers. If you do NOT prune (cut back) flowering plants, they grow all over the place and, in most cases, become LESS capable of producing flowers. The same is true of any kind of fruit-bearing plant. The more energy they have to put into excessive leaves, branches, vines, whatever, the less energy they have for producing flowers (and later fruit).

I was never a very successful gardener until I understood about pruning, to be honest. Cutting plants back when needed, including cutting off flowers from time to time, has been one of the most important lessons I've ever learned.

I don't have any comments on vegetarianism, other than to note that it's really only an option in a society where produce is freely and easily available all year around. A rich western society, with frozen and canned foods and lots of imported fresh fruits and vegetables, can easily support a vegetarian lifestyle, certainly. Some other societies can, as well, because of the abundance of year-round crops and a reliance on dried legumes, rice, grain, etc. But in a lot of places, if you don't eat animals or eggs or use animal products, you will certainly die. It's something to think about, anyway.

Well..there's always "Pranic Nourishment".. oh the horror..those poor little Pranas!
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jasmuheen

[Neil Templar]

i can't remember where i heard it, definitely some channeled information, maybe on the monroe institute downloads, but one of the channeled beings said that we need to develop our knowledge of genetics, so that we can "grow" the protein filled "meat" material, so we can still get what we need but stop eating living beings..

[Palehorse Redivivus]

i can't remember where i heard it, definitely some channeled information, maybe on the monroe institute downloads, but one of the channeled beings said that we need to develop our knowledge of genetics, so that we can "grow" the protein filled "meat" material, so we can still get what we need but stop eating living beings..

What I would wonder is -- would the lab-generated meat contain the same sort of lifeforce as living animals, fruits and veggies?

I'm not a raw-foodist, but I do think they're onto something with the idea of living vs. dead food (the latter lacking in nutritional value). With fresh meat, fruit and veg, you've still got living cells, or at the very least, some of the life-energy probably still remains. Overcooking meat, fruit and veg decreases the nutritional value, and I think part of that may be down to the effect that heat and fire have on not only the physical composition, but the energy of formerly living, organic material. Meat carbonizes; fruit and veg cells burst (which is why they get mushy). Not that cooking has much to do with lab-meat... I'm just wondering if the lab meat would be able to be considered "living" in the same way a full animal is, for nutritional purposes.

In any case, I'm pretty sure the tech to do what you're describing already exists... I mean if they can grow tissue suitable for medical applications, I don't see why growing meat for food would be much different in principle.