Are Vegetarians...NonViolent?

[CFTraveler]

If I were going to guess, I'd guess that cloning the meat cells (or growing it in the way PH describes) would probably be considered alive, provided that the original cell was alive in the first place- but 'cooking up' proteins and calling it meat wouldn't.
I wonder if their by-products (like bacteria that would live on them or fungi, etc.) would be 'alive' enough to qualify....
*ponders*.

[Timotheus]

[Jaco]

One. God designed for us to eat vegetables. Not animals. And two. The nonviolent argument. Any consumption of an animal is violent, but consuming a salad is nonviolent.

Leaving god out of the argument.

One - we are not designed to eat only plants. If we were then we WOULD only eat plants. We would prefer to only eat plants. This is not the case, is it.

Two - consuming a salad is non-violent.
I'm gonna tell you a story. A story about a boy, his parents garden, and carrots. This boy (me) had been going with his parents to help them with gardening. Being there, sometimes he would go among the carrots, searching with wild bunny-like gaze for the biggest one. Then when the target was chosen he would pull the carrot out of the ground and he would wash it under a nearby tap and then he would take a bite "crunch", eating the carrot there on the spot, raw, still alive. Tell me this is not violent.

[Beekeeper]

I recently watched a metaphysical type interview where the interviewee proposed that something was done to earth that changed things so we all needed eat to survive, thus creating the brutality and fear we know today. The interviewer agreed, saying this was her intuition too and she believed it happened around the time of the destruction of Atlantis. At that point my cynicism gene kicked in and I imagined the rapid evolution of mouths with teeth and tongues and digestive systems, post-Atlantis (they wouldn't have been needed for communication earlier because everyone was allegedly psychic, weren't they?).

Eating other living things is part of the simulation that is life on planet earth. Ultimately, it's not real because everything is eternal.

Now, that expressed, I'll confess that I prefer flowers on trees and bushes than in vases and that I chat to my plants (because I'm naturally nurturing and I enjoy expressing it). I prune them too and extend their lives. I clone them through taking cuttings and I eat them.

I can eat plants I've grown but I have a double standard when it comes to animals. Once, when I was little, my dad brought home quail. I was over the moon when I thought they were new pets for the menagerie* but horrified when he slaughtered them (are quail significant enough for the word "slaughter"?). I couldn't eat them.

As a young woman I'd go diving with my hubby. When he'd line up a fish with his spear gun he'd suddenly hear the muffled underwater sounds of, "GO, GO! Get away fast!" By then, I'd learnt that to not eat the creature was essentially for it to have died in vain. So, I'm essentially unable to do the "evil" deed myself to an animal I'm prepared to eat and I recognise that this is because its consciousness is more like my own. This said, I'll swat a mosquito that's biting me or take medication to remove parasites from my system and not feel an ounce of guilt. I realise this is highly irrational of me and the product of my particular social context and conditioning. It doesn't matter anyway because it's all ultimately illusion. Everything ends and is recycled.

*These days I'm likely to ask questions related to the morality of keeping (non-working) animals for pets but that's for another thread.

[Beekeeper]

Oh, forgot. I think vegetarians have occasionally become violent at anti-logging protests but I could be wrong.

[ButterflyWoman]

I went out to my garden today to put some compost in the worm farm and also to check on my plants. My strawberry plant (only have one, but it's a happy plant and produces fruit fairly well) was looking unwell. Turns out that it was infested with caterpillars (again). I had to cut off all the damaged leaves, several damaged fruit, and I ended up killing a couple of caterpillars in the process (normally, I like caterpillars, but when they're harming my strawberry plant, I don't like them so much!). I also sprayed the plant down with all-natural insecticide that will keep the nasty little larvae off my poor plant.

As I was doing all this, I was thinking how cruel and violent I am. Not only was I hacking off parts of the plant, I was getting rid of poor, defenceless caterpillars who wanted nothing more than to destroy the plant by eating the leaves and fruit. I should be ashamed.

[Neil Templar]

so a certain amount of violence is necessary for life to remain abundant then?
of course. we MUST eat to survive.
this whole argument is one of absolutes. violence or non-violence.
duality. separateness.
we know those are human concepts, blinding us to the one-ness of what is. creating a conflict of ideas about the "right" way to live.
there's no right or wrong way to live.
if you FEEL bad about eating meat, don't do it.
if you feel bad about eating veg, don't do it.
but somewhere along the road survival kicks in and you'll have to give in... you gotta eat!

if a tree bears fruit, and that fruit doesn't get eaten, it falls off and rots. it's gonna die, but it will spread the seeds of life in the process.
if it's eaten, the being that ate it, allows it's own life to continue.
what's the difference?
life goes on...whatever the choice..

[ButterflyWoman]

so a certain amount of violence is necessary for life to remain abundant then?

I don't know if I'd say "violence". I guess it depends on how you define the term "violence". If you break a bone, sometimes the doctor has to grab hold of it from outside and manipulate it to set it properly. Is that "violence"? I'd say it's necessary roughness, but I wouldn't call it violence.

It's also possible to kill things without being unnecessarily cruel or violent. When an animal is euthanised (for any of many, many good medical, ethical reasons), it's very gentle. Only the immediate sting of the needle as the drug is administered, and then the animal goes to sleep and simply doesn't wake up. I wouldn't call that violent, either.

this whole argument is one of absolutes. violence or non-violence.
duality. separateness.

YES. Exactly. The argument is based on the notion that "them" is different from "us" and that "I" am different from "you" (or, I suppose "a cow" or "a fish" or "some caterpillars who were harming my strawberry plant").

Personally, I think it's more about cruelty and intent rather than "life" or "death" or similar.

if you FEEL bad about eating meat, don't do it.
if you feel bad about eating veg, don't do it.
but somewhere along the road survival kicks in and you'll have to give in... you gotta eat!

Yup. That's my position on it. If you don't want to eat meat, well, there are lots of perfectly valid reasons for making that decision, but I don't think it necessarily makes you more holy or more enlightened.

[CFTraveler]

As usual, y'all hit the nail right on the head.

[lightningbug]

awww..thanks for the posts guys, it's been helpful

can't believe I didn't see the dualism in it all! no wonder I was confused. and besides...how can I be completely nonviolent while I enjoy giving kitty fresh tuna? *enjoying feeding an animal another animal???* oh the happy look on her face (pre-atlantis smile)

I realise this is highly irrational of me and the product of my particular social context and conditioning. It doesn't matter anyway because it's all ultimately illusion. Everything ends and is recycled.

definitely I think how were raised plays a huge role in it

growing up, I took part in two cultures. the american culture and the traditional puerto rican culture. in comparison, in the american culture you don't know what you're eating!!! there are so many american kids who even at the age of ten, don't know what animal was slaughtered for their tasty burger. it's like its a dirty little secret these days, that kids shouldn't know where meat comes from. they might be traumatized.

at a young age, eight I think, we go to puerto rico for a traditional wedding. guess whats on the menu, a whole roasted pig. face and everything. there just wasn't anything like that in the mainland. it was shocking for me, even though my parents have cooked for me whole chicken before - it never had a face.

the face changes everything. as someone told me, yes it makes you conscious of an animals death. but more importantly. it makes you conscious of your own mortality.

but my mom literally starved me the whole day to save my appetite for the wedding feast. well it worked. after hours of a rumbly tummy I actually found myself hypnotized over the roasting pig, face and all, and asking mom if it was done. I know I know, just terrible of me.

but I could never have raised the pig and then slaughter it. but to think, I had a cousin around the same age as me, whose family were the ones who raise the pigs. And these are big pigs, live for years. Who since birth, was never a pet. But fattened up for a feast. What a different world that is then fast food america.

but our modern denial of where our food comes from, doesn't just stop at meat. We have lots of wild fruit trees just growing all over the city. No one ever eats the fruit. It just all falls to floor and rots. Free fruit!! I wonder if even the homeless here enjoy the fruit.

But I'm just as guilty and as irrational! I can't eat the fruit growing around here. It always feels....dirty. Why, because it doesn't have a label? 99% of the fruit I've eaten came from supermarkets! These are nasty suburbian fruit trees, I can't eat from them!

Then I go visit my uncle again in Puerto Rico. Nice home with all the modern luxuries, big flat screen TV. Oh hey, he notices he's out of oranges or mangos! No problem. He grabs a ladder.

Can I eat the fruit he gathered for me in his wild back yard? I can. But it always feels weird. Like..this is where fruit really comes from.

Of course, times are changing for the island. People who buy at the supermarket, are buying imported fruit. Of which is growing wild!!

how disconnected are we from where our food comes from?

and I think I just changed the topic. But I am the OP...I can do that right?