How much choice is involved in the process of reincarnation?

[ButterflyWoman]

Just a comment on "boring" (I did read the rest of the post; I just had a comment on this ). Boredome is totally relative. Being bored is an ego-based emotional/mental response we have to certain situations, and nothing more.

I used to get bored and restless very easily, and I went to great lengths to alleviate that boredom. I never get bored now, despite the fact that my life is, by most standards, quite mundane and unexciting. I relish the lack of drama. I can sit in complete silence for an hour or more, just staring contentedly at some object or out the window, with no need to be entertained or stimulated or otherwise "not-bored". I don't know how this happened, other than it seems to be a by-product of expanding awareness and, frankly, a life so "exciting" and dramatic I got sick of it. I also think that meditation has helped with my ability to just be at peace without the need to assess the situation as boring or not.

I have to say, the ability to just BE, without needing drama or excitement or stimulation or entertainment, is one of the greatest things I've experienced. Psychic ability, OBE, unity-consciousness, that stuff is all perfectly fine and useful and interesting, but being able to enjoy a quiet life and never get bored is... Well, I guess it's "the peace that surpasses all understanding".

Well worth cultivating, if you can. It's a great pleasure to lead a mundane, boring life.

(I think this went a little off topic. Apologies for that. I just felt like writing that and I'm glad I did, because even if it doesn't help anyone else, it was helpful to me to write it down, so I'm thankful for that opportunity. )

[Wallbridge]

Although I am still looking forward to a future life of freedom, I have taken your advice to heart. I am actively trying every day to see the beauty in everyday things, and to view life with amazement as I did when I was totally free a few years ago. Thanks!

As an example, when I was on my own during my blissful time, I once looked at the world like this:

"Whoa! A furniture store! I wonder what they sell there, and how many people work inside... cool chair! Wow, nice tree! How old is it? It's real green."

Which changed to this after marriage:

"Identify: building. Don't drive into it. Identify: scooter. Avoid. Identify: students. Teach. Identify: bed. Sleep."

Just today, I came out of McDonalds and took the time to check out the grass out front, and I actually thought, "Hey, grass! Haven't seen that in a while. Cool." Sounds dorky, I know, but it beats the alternative.

[ButterflyWoman]

Doesn't sound dorky to me. I do the same thing. Since I started to take deliberate pleasure in everyday things, my life has just gotten much sweeter. Grass, flowers, the way raindrops run down a window pane, the feeling of cold water in my mouth as I drink it, all of that is wonderful, when I pay attention to it.

[Palehorse Redivivus]

Every now and then some intuitive insight comes through for me in a pithy "Zen wisdom" sorta way, and that happened earlier; may or may not resonate for you, Wallbridge...

The gist of it was that "To allow one relationship to put arbitrary restrictions on one's ability to enjoy other relationships, prevents full enjoyment of ALL relationships, including the original one."

While never married, I've been in relationships that had the effect you describe, and I've been in others that didn't. IMO the problem is not relationships or even marriage per se -- it's that most people equate "relationships" with "having to put artificial restrictions on the way I relate to my world and other people." A marriage contract, which comes with a lot of associated thoughtforms attached, even has it built in, what with the whole "forsaking all others" bit. It is possible to remove the thoughtforms from your energy body (and thus probably get back much of the dynamic and "color" that you're missing) without ending the relationship, though I'd recommend a lot of open communication if you go that route, because the energetic changes will likely change the dynamic of the relationship in a way that may shake up your partner.

[ButterflyWoman]

I've been in relationships that had the effect you describe, and I've been in others that didn't. IMO the problem is not relationships or even marriage per se -- it's that most people equate "relationships" with "having to put artificial restrictions on the way I relate to my world and other people." A marriage contract, which comes with a lot of associated thoughtforms attached, even has it built in, what with the whole "forsaking all others" bit.

Agreed. There's a LOT of baggage that tends to come with the idea of what "married people" are supposed to do, think, be like, etc. There's even more associated with how a parent is supposed to act. What they might be depends on one's particular conditioning.

I can tell you firsthand that sometimes, everything is fine until the ring goes on the finger, and then, suddenly, everything changes. This is not due to any particular change in the relationship, usually, but in the expectations, perceptions, ideas, beliefs, etc. associated with "marriage".

Not all marriages are like that, of course. I've been very happily married for more than a decade and I don't feel at all restricted, bored, constricted, or otherwise hampered by the relationship. That has not, however, always been the case (see above). Get rid of the thoughtforms and beliefs that marriage is supposed to be like X or you're supposed to act like Y or feel like Z, and the relationship will take on completely new dynamics (which may be quite disturbing, as mentioned).

[Palehorse Redivivus]

What she said. *nod*

I theorize that by default, "marriage" comes with a sort of energetic "template," and if it is not entered into consciously, then that's what you end up with. You go from the individuals you started out as, to "placeholders" within a role that has been externally defined. Said template has evolved over the centuries; I might go as far as to say "degraded." The one that's attached to marriage today in 2009 actually seems to have the opposite effect that it's "supposed" to -- which is to say that it comes with a lot of restriction, and division that turns the two people more into adversaries than allies, and helps explain why the divorce rate is through the roof. In short: the two people end up serving the thoughtform, rather than entering into an arrangment that benefits and enriches both parties. Not surprising that this arrangement tends to suck the life out of people!

But... it doesn't have to.

You can observe the template, know that it's an energetic template imposing itself rather than "the way things are" or "the way marriage is," and you can make something that is the product of the unique (and evolving) wants and needs of two unique individuals. In general, anytime you can take something and make it your own, either alone or as a joint creative collaboration with someone else, you get back that experience of life-as-art.

[ymunio]

To impose external rules on a personal relationship just begs for trouble. Marriage is such a personal thing. No legal system on earth should ever recognize any marriage, for the same reason it shouldn't recognize friendships. Because unlike business arrangements, it's not a government's place to govern social relationships. Same applies to family members. If you want to have a meaningful and romantic wedding... just disinvite everyone. Then you've got a very personal and intimate ritual between two people who are focused on each other instead of on creating some big expensive and disgusting display of wealth.

Isn't that what a wedding should be? What a marriage should be? Something personal between two people? Try to impress your parents or your friends, or invite their arbitrary religious or cultural nonsense into your relationship, and you might as well be inviting them all into your bedroom as well. Because you're asking for a messy and frustrating ride that will likely end in chaos and embarrassment. I"m so lucky to have married a woman who is as disinterested as in cultural norms as I am. We got married in a private ceremony in Las Vegas. In the years since we've been happy and our relationship has been laid back and friendly. We treat each other as equals, neither of us has any authority over the other. At least not for long. And this confuses people who assume we're like everyone else. Rigid, traditional, hierarchical. That's not to say that we're not constantly testing each others' boundaries, and arguing from time to time. We even flirt with other people in front of the other, because that's normal human nature and we aren't in denial about that. Sometimes I look around at other relationships and I see how empty they are, founded on insecurity and other people's opinions, and restrictions. No wonder the divorce rate is so high.

[ymunio]

I forgot to say, more to the subject of this thread, how frustrating it is to have no actual memory of ever choosing this incarnation or the lessons to be learned here. I feel powerless like I'm chained to a roller coaster on a path of destiny that I have no control over. Because, for all I know, this path could lead to an unimaginable hell. And I'm just supposed to just feel good about wherever it takes me because supposedly I agreed to it all ahead of time? Come on. What's especially fishy is that I'm not SUPPOSED to remember choosing all of this (oh how convenient) because there's some sort of amnesia barrier that's put in place to keep me lost and isolated from my spiritual identity, and somehow that is also supposed to be there for my best interests? And I'm just supposed to trust that this is all a perfect system and that everything is jolly and grand.

But it makes me wonder, what else could I have agreed to? What if I agreed to be tortured to death and to have my soul shattered into foam and scattered across the earth to float around aimlessly in enormous spiritual pain for hundreds of millions of years? I don't know that I didn't agree to that. That's terrifying to think about.

This brings the question, how ethical is it to have someone agree to endure something awful, and then impose upon them a cloud of amnesia that makes them forget they ever made the agreement? Because if you swallow that this is what happens from one incarnation to the next then you're a prisoner in just that type of system. It seems unethical because beyond that point of amnesia you have a poor frightened soul that is just looking around in powerless horror wondering why things are so awful, with no idea why they are there, with no say in their fate even though they may know more about the situation now than they did before and might not make the same agreement.

How is it we're supposed to be okay with this during an incarnation? What if I approached a stranger on the street and just punched him in the mouth with all my strength? And when he demands to know why I did such a thing, I say, "oh, yesterday we arranged this face-punching together and you even signed a constract saying it would be okay. Oh, and nevermind that you have no idea what I'm talking about. You really did agree to this, you just don't remember, because, oh yeah, you wanted me to erase your memory of it. Now while you think about how rediculous that all sounds, I'm going to punch you seven more times, just like you asked me to..."

How do we know we're not in that situation with this reincarnation thing? What if we're all just being held captive in this 3-d matrix having our negative emotions and physical pain harvested from us routinely as tasty food for our captors who are masquerading as spirit guides?

[CFTraveler]

But it makes me wonder, what else could I have agreed to? What if I agreed to be tortured to death and to have my soul shattered into foam and scattered across the earth to float around aimlessly in enormous spiritual pain for hundreds of millions of years? I don't know that I didn't agree to that. That's terrifying to think about.

What I have to wonder, is why would anyone agree to such a thing, and what makes you think you would? Why think about this at all? Feed your fear with fear, and you are making it true.

[ButterflyWoman]

You also have to ask: With whom would you be agreeing, anyway?

In my personal ever-expanding awareness and experience (not that I claim all-knowingness or anything, but it is always expanding), the bottom line is that there is no "me and you" or "us and them", it's all One.